Catholics
dirt track date -- Saturday, July 06, 2002 -- 02:29:01 PMSo why the hell haven't you left the church yet? I have church-shopped off and on for decades, and have never found anything comparable. I disagree with most of the church's teachings, but then so do most other Catholics I know. In what other religion can you cheerfully ignore the official line but still be welcome? I guess that's why I haven't left.
What about you?
This thread is tagged: faith, religion(All users will see what tags exist for a thread. Please tag carefully!)
There's speaking, and then there's giving a commencement speech - the motivating, rallying speech that sends the graduates out into the world.
Giving that platform to somebody who has consistently acted contrary to the university's core values is an odd choice.
Does ND ever invite people of non-Christian faiths to speak?
Most certainly. It's not about being Catholic.
Molly--absolutely.
Curb, I have no insight to ND's process, but I have attended two Catholic Universities. And the answer is that it depends upon the individual's platform. There is commonality of purpose and values across faiths, to be sure.
This old press release (from 2001, around the time President Bush was invited) from ND lists some notable commencement speakers in their history:
Notre Dame Commencement Speakers
Not a full list and does not include anybody recent.
Exactly. What exactly would you be afraid of Marsie, letting your college graduate hear the words of Obama at commencement? He is not Catholic. There is no requiremend or even tradition that the commencement speaker be Catholic.
And how is abortion any worse than capital punishment, or the war in Iraq which the Pope JP II specifically did say did not rise to the level of a "just war"? There is lots of killing in the world, and Catholics need to stand up for all life, not just the not yet born. The hysteria around abortion while evils like assisted suicided and capital punishment and torture get glossed over undermines their position.
I fear nothing. My daughter is eager to get started on her political science and economics degree. She'll hear plenty of Obama's voice. Obama will not say anything new or unexpected at the commencement. There are likely any number of people who could predict the precise content of his speech. How can you have missed the point that it is, IMHO, inappropriate to invite Obama to speak at graduation because it imparts dignity and approval to his views and policies and especially those he has seen fit to punctuate in his first two months in office?
And please do not berate me for a pro-life position on a thread for Catholics. As for other pro-life issues, I believe our church is on top of those as well. See below:
US Bishops statement on Capital Punishment
I don't berate you, but I also need to point out that Obama's policies, with the exceptions of abortion and stem cell research, line up fairly well with Catholic social teaching, or at least are more in line than recent administrations.
Why no outcry when Bush, who signed numerous death warrants as governor of Texas, was invited to speak?
(Deleted message originally posted by dirt track date on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 -- 12:23:18 AM.)
From ND website ...Father Jenkins Statement
Fr. Jenkins' statement on 2009 Commencement speaker
I think we're done here. Your posts have in no way softened my opinion. I know your daughter is happy there, but don't mistake ND's actions as reflective of Catholic opinion.
54% of Catholics voted for the guy, so I see ND's position as more reflective of general Catholic opinion than yours.
There is a segment of Catholic opinion that puts abortion uber alles, but it does not necessarily reflect the whole church.
In view of the fact that many Catholics oppose the church's position on many issues, such as birth control, clerical celibacy, women in the priesthood, and a number of others, I suspect that ND's actions are reflective of a lot of Catholic opinion.
That is the sort of tacky, stupid comment that got you kicked out of the Catholic Church. There was not evidence of fear. Just an interest in principle. Something you have no comprehension of, so I am not surprised you got all catty.
What you see is nonsense. 54% of American Catholics who voted voted for the guy. It is a Catholic school, not an American Catholic school.
The Catholics got a good trade when they took Gingrich in place of you.
That 54 percent stat is meaningless to reason from in a myriad of ways, but I'll just state one analogous line of reasoning that should make it perfectly clear:
The crowd voted for Barrabas to go free rather than Jesus. Does that mean Barabbas would be the preferred speaker at an ND commencement? No, and for most of the same reasons.
Note that I'm not saying Obama is comparable to Barabbas, only that the poll-based reasoning in each case is a similar non sequitur.
Weaver--it will discourage you to know I'm still a Catholic in good standing in the eyes of the Holy Mother Church. The Anglicans recognize all the Catholic sacraments and don't require any renunciation, unless you are in the line of succession for the throne.
It would discourage you even more to know I'm still contributing to my old parish. I pledged and I'll fulfill that pledge. It is not the local Parish's fault that the Pope is a Nazi or that the Jesuits are all child molesters.
You are all completely off your rockers about Obama speaking at ND. One of the great things about Catholics is that they don't wall themselves off from sinners and those in disagreement with the Church. Pull the guy in, let him speak and let the students hear for themselves and decide.
My daughter used to be strongly pro-choice before starting at ND. After two years she's completely backed away from that. She will never be a Randall Terry firebomber, but the education she's gotten has informed her ethics from cradle to grave, which of course is the whole point of Catholic education. But she'd never put abortion as more or less important than preventing euthanasia, capital punishment or genocide. It's all of a piece. It is respect for life, and any politician is going to fall short of a perfect report card.
I defy any of you to come up with a national political leader who is against abortion, against capital punishment, against assisted suicide, and who supports a foreign policy that would have teeth against genocide and mass killings. If there is such a person I would vote for her or him in a heartbeat.
No, it won't. I'm not in good standing with Rome.
Again, no. I am happy you are supporting the parish. It isn't their fault you are a heretic.
I am not. By having him speak in this venue, they are holding him up as a role model, and as such they are supporting his ideas. As it happens, he holds positions that are more anti-thetical to the positions of the Roman church than any President in a long time. That is a foolish position to take, if they intend to be a Catholic school.
As theology goes, that sucks. So, your daughter is as bad at moral reasoning as you are. Ok, another argument against ND. But two wrongs don't make a right.
Excuse me, but all Jesuits are not child molestors. My husband's uncle was a Jesuit priest right up until his death 2 years ago and he was not and was never a child molestor. He was a man of great faith and principles who loved his church.
Please do not tar an entire order for the sins of some.
I don't think I am, as it doesn't matter very much to me, not being a Catholic or ever having attended the university. My only goose in this game is the faulty reasoning to which I responded. The percentage of US Catholics *reported by exit polls* to have voted for Obama is as much relevant to the argument as that zero pin-dancing angels did.
In other news, I have next Friday off and will probably go to my first Good Friday Mass in probably 30 years.
I think. Did I go a few years ago? My aged memory isn't what it used to be.
I thought they did the veneration of the cross on Good Friday, don't they?
We have two different churches this year. Not sure how that's going to work. For Christmas, we did Christmas Eve at my husband's church, dinner, then Midnight Mass. Maybe we'll do Vigil Mass on Saturday, and go to his church on Easter.
I thought Catholics didn't celebrate mass on Good Friday.
I don't think we do. There's no Eucharist from Holy Thursday to Easter Vigil, so no mass.
My church has Morning Prayer at 8:00, Celebration of the Passion of the Lord at 3:00, and Stations of the Cross at 7:00.
I have to work that night, but I'll go to the 3:00, and the neighborhood all-church Stations of the Cross, which walks through town at noon.
Saturday night I have to work, but the Easter Vigil is so long, I'll still make the last hour.
Then I'm going to a zombie fest, where I've been promised a zombie burlesque version of Jesus Christ Superstar. We're either all going to hell via lightening bolt or we'll be pretty secure in knowing God has a sense of humor.
Zombie fest sounds like fun.
I remember one of my ex-boyfriends going to church on Good Friday but he said everyone only sits and prays. No priest, no mass. And the crucifix at the back of the altar is covered.
I couldn't care less if the stammering con-man 0bama shows up at Notre Dame with his teleprompter.
If the students want to hear him read page after page of lies off said teleprompter, let 'em.
If they want to stay stupid, they'll believe every falsehood that emerges from his gaping pie-hole.
If they want to get smart, they'll listen and learn that the idiot they helped elect is a vapid empty-suit who thinks he has all the answers -- but in reality knows nothing and is in over his head.
They can then choose to remain young and impressionable ignoramuses or they can choose to become mature, smart, and highly skeptical of the idiot in the Oval Office.
It could go either way.
Well, whatever the thing is on Friday. I went to it a few years ago. I have always genuflected rather than kiss it. Ugh. I was kind of a rebel for doing so in my younger days, although I didn't see too many people not kissing it that last time. My mom said she was relieved when I did it in front of here so she could do it as well.
I threw up then scrubbed it off with one of those Clorox wipes.
My son's Confirmation class carries the cross into the church this Friday. It's very nice symbolically. I can hardly believe he's old enough already.
We had ice cream with dessert yesterday and it was much appreciated. We talked about possibly giving up cookies next year. Simon was offered ice cream by the mother of one of his friends, and he refused, citing his Lenten sacrifice. He was also very conscientious about not eating meat on Fridays.
Easter Mass was very nice. Lots of hallelujahs and they brought in drums and French horns to accompany the usual piano and guitar. I got choked up during the Gospel reading. It was very nice.
Anybody helping out with the Catholics in Italy suffering because of the earthquake? What goes around comes around.
I'm giving a book on the saints. I've never been a fan of monetary gifts for First Communion or Confirmation.