Quagmire: The GWAC Farewell Tour (Archive)

Nice to see Minister of Emotion Ace von Poopstain fulfilling his duties. I knew I could count on you.

#695:

It's nice to have him concede the bloody obvious, but I'd like to see Eric now internalize that concession and work the logic through.

I have. You demonstrated how the "deterrence" argument has flaws in it, because Saddam was emboldened enough to try what he did back in 1993. You've done well. Now run home and tell Dick what a man you are.

The point is that Saddam is not deterred, not that he poses a direct threat to our high-tech air force.

Okay. I agree.

Notice also that Eric the Red says "If it is true that Saddam is shooting at our planes..." as if he really wants to dispute the claim but doesn't have the balls or the facts to do so....Read a fucking newspaper from the last ten years, dude.

I wasn't disputing the claim at all; I know it's true. I was merely saying that if it's happened that often, and no pilots have been hurt, then Iraq's actions here have been either half-assed or half-hearted.

Bullshit. You would claim 1) that Bush had deliberately sent our planes into a dangerous SAM trap in order to provoke a pretext for war, and 2) that we were violating their sovereignty for even flying over their country, so you can hardly call a counter-attack an "act of war."

I see your mind-reading lessons are paying off.

Apparently Eric the Red thinks that Saddam can shoot at our planes from now until next Red Oktober and it doesn't constitute an act of war... until a missile actually hits home.

Well, this has been going on for years. So far it hasn't constituted an act of war. Indeed, even the hawks have devoted much more time to the "but he gassed his own people!" argument than the "he keeps firing missiles at our patrol planes" rationale. And it's a perfectly acceptable rationale. I just haven't heard it brought up in the context of "this is why we have to bomb these fuckers".

299 total Coalition troops died last time.

Right. Whether or not we have a coalition this time will probably depend on how we handle the UN. I have no doubt that Saddam, being who he is, will give them all the reason they need to join in.

A har har har har har. Right. We attack "Nearby villages."....You know, just for shits and giggles....Asshole. Fuck you, you dipshit.

Go take your Prozac, numbnuts. I wasn't saying it disparagingly at all. I don't have a problem with it. If they're going to fire on our pilots, they need to get a little payback.

Okay. Let's go through this again:

Saddam is buying uranium from Africa.

Saddam is buying weapons technology from the Ukraine.

Saddam has a staff of nuclear scientists and yet no need of a peaceful nuclear reactor.

Some of Saddam's nuclear scientists have defected and confirmed that he is still attempting to build a nuclear bomb.

Saddam built a reactor in the eighties.

Saddam smuggles in dual-use technology from Europe.

Even while weapons inspectors were in his country, Saddam was *still* working on WMD, and we know this because we *found* lots of WMD and WMD technology.

I demand that you respond to each one of these facts.

That is a pretty good case building up there. I have already conceded several times that it's probably a done deal, because the whole inspection deal will unearth the truth, without any actual inspections. If Iraq attempts to meddle with the inspection terms (as they already are), then they must have something to hide. Which is good enough reason to initiate some sort of military action, imho.

And after checking out the Blair dossier (thanks for the link, Dick), I'm pretty much at my 50% benchmark. I suppose all that's left is quibbling over the mechanics of the operation. I mean, it is okay with you guys if I ask questions, isn't it? I certainly don't want to upset Bow-Tie Man & Zoloft Boy, my favorite ambiguously gay superhero duo.

No matter what the question, Eric the Red's answer is that we should stop driving SUV's.

Oh, no. I think we should just continue guzzling as much gas as possible. Dumbass, isn't it just basic common sense, that when your economy and ability to function as a nation is incredibly dependent on a commodity -- a commodity which requires your involvement in an exceptionally unstable and violent area of the world -- that you take steps to at least moderate, if not actively reduce, your dependency on that region?

Personally, I was in favor of drilling in ANWR, provided that the fuel efficiency standards were also tightened back to where they should be. Look, for me it's not an enviro issue. You have never heard tree-hugger boilerplate from me; I seriously doubt you can point to anything I've ever said about global warming.

I just think it's dumb -- unconscionably reckless and needless and dumb -- to not actively take steps to extricate ourselves from this nasty little backwater region of the world. I realize it doesn't happen overnight. I realize that we don't have Magic Fuel yet. But what's galling is that we don't even bother to try; in fact we keep going heedlessly in the opposite direction.

I've never ever said that we all must ride bicycles and live in hemp-powered communes. But it is unrealistic and short-sighted to just completely place ourselves at the mercy of these assholes. You want to talk common sense? There it is.

#696:

Like so many on the America-hating Left, Eric the Pink Pussy is far more concerned about the threat America poses to her enemies than the threat her enemies pose to America.

Go fuck yourself, douchebag. Then, learn to read.

Eric obfuscates about the "thousands of America dead" he fears. Bullshit. His cute little lies about our planes "attacking nearby villages" for no reason other than simple muderous rage gives the game away.

Unfortunately, you completely misinterpreted that remark. But I'm sure that doesn't matter; your real goal is to paint everyone and everything in the worst possible light.

He's not concerned about Ameican casualties; he's concerned about American victims....But just like racists have learned to use a more acceptable vocabulary, i.e., "racial codewords," to get their points across, the Hate America Left has learned to stop whining about enemy casualties and claim they're just worried that some of our boys will come home in boxes....Our boys will be fine and I'm pretty sure you know that. But that's never been your worry.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. It seems to never have occurred to you that some people operate by the credo "love your country, be skeptical of your government".

Oh, I know you do when it's a Democrat being discussed. But that's different. They're eeevil. And shallow; how dare they sit on their fatty-fat asses and make fun of poor W's random syntax? For shame! Fat bastards, all of them.

Hey, Stamper, long time no see. I respond to Ace in the same fashion he chooses to address me. Sorry if you don't like it; take it up with him.

But do try occasionally being skeptical of the likes of Saddam Hussein as well.

No shit, Sherlock. There's never been any question of that, and if you have actually read, you'd understand that. The questions, for me, have revolved around things like whether the real threat is enough to justify what's being proposed, whether an already weak economy can handle it, whether it sets a bad precedent or damages our reputation, etc.

I honestly am at a loss as to why you seem to think it's the height of treachery to have some misgivings about some of these things. None of this is as cut-and-dried as you'd like it to be, so that's why we hash these things out.

Just to be fair, you know? I mean, just pretend to occasionally be dubious about Tariq Aziz's representations. Just so you won't look so much like a foreign dupe or shill.

More deliberately misrepresentational nonsense. It really would be nice if you would bother to read and comprehend once in a while, you know? Nowhere have I said, "Gee, let's just take the Iraqis at their word." I have consistently and repeatedly said that unconditional and unfettered inspections should be the last best hope, and if that isn't gonna work, then it's go time.

Really, Ace, all the nonsense you've spewed today, trying to portray me as some America-hating dipshit, has been a tremendous waste of your time and prodigious talents. You'd have been better off trolling E-Bay for a mint copy of Detective Comics #27.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't. Yes, I agree that the threat is looking more and more imminent, and worth taking care of now instead of later. But the other factors I briefly mentioned -- economic, international relations, etc., are still a bit up in the air.

If there is a coalition, that will greatly alleviate economic concerns. If Pakistan and India are quickly brought to heel and made to understand that what we do in Iraq does not give them carte blanche to nuke each other, then that will help with that concern. I am generally inclined to believe that those things will work out.

I thought we were up to 50% confidence, well above your threshold for confidence for military action?

Well, 50% is my threshold, not "well above" it. It's "well above" Cheney's threshold, not mine. But yes, I am about at my personal benchmark for supporting action. The final factor, I suppose, would be a brief wait to see how the inspection situation is handled by all sides.

We are hashing this particular thing out only because one of us has been, and seems to continue to be, stubbornly immune to the facts.

Not at all. In fact, that's what I've been waiting for -- facts, rather than assertions. Now that more facts are coming, I am more and more willing to consider getting on the bus.

I'm sorry it's too slow for you. I don't have your bloodlust. I am not in a rush to "clarify" people whose biggest crime in life has been to be born into a shithole with a tinhorn despot. I want to be at least fairly certain that we'll be doing the right thing for the right reasons, and that we'll actually stick around and make a real commitment to get the best results for everyone concerned.

I want to strike back at the people who struck us at the WTC. If they are indeed affiliated with Hussein, then all the more reason to get him. But, as a famous guy once said, I am a deliberate person. I want facts before making such momentous decisions. Anyone who takes such decisions lightly is a little off in the head.

At least it's an idea of an action and not the imitation of an action as we get from Gusto.

Nonsense. You need to read more closely.

I know [Gusto] really wants to agree with Ace, but he would lose his reason for being.

Actually, it's the other way around.

Exactly.