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Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?
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The Perfect World >> Politics >> Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?

Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?

Nicholas Kronos -- Monday, January 31, 2011 -- 05:44:24 PM

The 2012 presidential campaign--you know it's coming and starting already. Will anyone run we can actually be excited about?

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Pincher Martin -- Friday, February 24, 2012 -- 06:09:01 PM -- 1982 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

Does anyone more in tune with the news care to predict something other than a Romney win at this point?

I bet I've watched this election as closely as anyone. Drudge was headlining the other day that this Arizona debate was the 20th of the campaign season. I've seen all but two of them. And I wouldn't wager serious money against Romney getting the nomination unless you gave me twenty to one.

Amaxen -- Friday, February 24, 2012 -- 06:11:25 PM -- 1983 of 2421
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Thanks, PM.

Pincher Martin -- Friday, February 24, 2012 -- 06:15:47 PM -- 1984 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

But I was also the guy who thought John McCain couldn't come back and win the GOP nomination in 2008, so I can get these things really wrong.

rubberducky -- Friday, February 24, 2012 -- 07:10:12 PM -- 1985 of 2421
If you really want the thread to die, give it to ducky. theMote's PoJ

i have already predicted a Santorum victory.

and everyone knows i have my finger on the pulse of the GOP!

Pincher Martin -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 01:02:57 AM -- 1986 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

There seems to be a growing desire on the part of many establishment Republicans to wrap up the primaries early so the party can immediately get behind a nominee and start taking on Obama.

What's the hurry? Is there any proof that finishing the primaries quickly and decisively gives a party an advantage in the general election?

If so, I don't see it. And I think I know the modern history of presidential elections as well as or better than most political junkies.

Put aside the obvious exceptions of incumbent presidents who are challenged in the primaries by determined and resilient political foes. I think most people would agree that Carter/Kennedy in 1980 and even Bush/Buchanan in 1992 are a strikingly different phenomena from what we see in this year's Republican primary. In those elections, sitting presidents were being challenged by a member of their party because their presidencies were widely perceived as failures. In this year's GOP primary, several candidates of more or less equal stature are vying for the opportunity to represent the party.

To simplify things, let's look at the other primaries in one of two ways. We'll classify them as "seriously contested" or "not seriously contested". Seriously contested means that the nominee was still in reasonable doubt just before Super Tuesday (or early March).

Thus, the 1976 GOP primary between Ford and Reagan would be seriously contested, but not the 1996 GOP primary between Bob Dole and Pat Buchanan/Steve Forbes. On the Democratic side, the 2008 contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama would be seriously contested, but not the 2000 primary between Al Gore and Bill Bradley.

On the Democratic side, there's definitely no correlation between finishing the primaries early and having success in the general election. The seriously contested primaries in 1972, 1984, and 1988 certainly gave no joy that November for Democrats. But they were more successful in 1976, 1992, and 2008, even though those primaries were also seriously contested.

In the two years Democrats lined up behind a nominee early (2000 and 2004), they lost both general elections by close margins.

Republicans tend to make up their minds more quickly than Democrats. They are less likely to tarry before lining up behind a nominee. Until this year, only one modern election was seriously contested, and that was the 1976 campaign between Ford and Reagan. Even so, Ford lost that year's general election by a very close margin, and was even leading Carter in some polls before his Poland gaffe in the second presidential debate. So it doesn't appear he was crippled by the long primary season.

The only other possible primary campaign which might be called extended would be the one in 2008, but even that contest was considered over by most serious observers when McCain won Florida's primary on January 29th.

All the other modern GOP primaries were over fairly quickly, with the eventual GOP nominee winning at least forty primaries and caucuses in 1980, 1988, 1996, and 2000. Republicans won three out of those four general elections, but one of the victories was skin-tight.

****

So I don't see it. Wrapping up the nomination early can mean you're a Bob Dole or John Kerry. Taking your time to wrap it up can mean you're a Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter. There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that finishing the primaries early is helpful to a nominee's success in the general election. It appears to be nothing more than an urban legend of political elites who are fussed over some unimportant aspect of an election they perceive as too messy.

Pincher Martin -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 01:15:56 AM -- 1987 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

BTW, for these kinds of comparisons, I never consider Gerald Ford to be an incumbent since he was appointed, not elected, to the presidency.

jenrenton -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 02:26:58 AM -- 1988 of 2421
Snowflake mother

The only thing I will say is that all the infighting tends to burn through a lot of money. And Obama has a reputation as a fund-raising superhuman. So perhaps part of the fear is that the Republican winner will be so poor that Obama will crush him.

CurbSide -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 02:28:52 AM -- 1989 of 2421
I have cheese touch.

That's not what happened last time around. The Dems went on and on into the summer, and they still won in the general.

jenrenton -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 02:29:35 AM -- 1990 of 2421
Snowflake mother

Not saying that'll be the case, just that it might explain the urge to be "done."

Phillip Sheridan -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 03:12:53 PM -- 1991 of 2421
Could someone tell me my password?

I wonder if the money issue is a non-issue at this point. Kerry finished with cash on hand. The candidates will be able to get as much as is necessary for them to win.

As for the length of the race, it can only assist the eventual nominee in terms of prep, and it keeps a focus on the GOP, but it also means that the eventual nominee can do something stupid fending off challengers. Like giving a speech in Ford Field when it had a puppet-show sized crowd.

That said, the president is unopposed and in a week, he gave the GOP the gifts of "algae" as an energy policy and multiple apologies to the psychotics for the burning of their terror manual.

CalGal -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 03:58:12 PM -- 1992 of 2421
I remember a time, back in the late 90s, when I thought nonsense like this mattered somewhat more than I do now. Now I see well-educated people yammering about the birth control choices of their daughters, or gay marriage, and I think they are morons.

I don't think it's about money. The Republican elite tends to care about what the press thinks, and the press presents this ongoing primary as a bad thing. They did in 08, too.

Amaxen -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 06:53:21 PM -- 1993 of 2421
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

I get a feeling of relief and smugness from the lefties I associate with. And it appears to be because of the extended fighting between the nominees. I know that democrats tend to regard a long nomination process as damaging, and this extends to the press - god knows why. If the election is too long and you're attacking the opponent, it can reach a point where it goes on too long.

Pincher Martin -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 08:08:57 PM -- 1994 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

When has one of the major party candidates ever lost a general election for lack of money? Name one.

When a candidate has a huge money advantage going into an election (Reagan in 84; Obama in 08). it's because their election is seen as inevitable. Politics is awash in money when the need arises, and a candidate is seen as competitive.

The election, if it's close, will come down to ad spending in perhaps a dozen states. Having that money for ads will be a necessary but not sufficient ingredient for victory. The notion that Romney won't have enough money to spend in those states in September because Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich made him spend it in March and April is absurd.

If Romney doesn't have money, it will be because the election got away from him for other reasons.

Pincher Martin -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 08:20:56 PM -- 1995 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

That said, the president is unopposed and in a week, he gave the GOP the gifts of "algae" as an energy policy and multiple apologies to the psychotics for the burning of their terror manual.

The president is not unopposed. He has four guys running at him every day on a national platform that gives them unparalleled media access they otherwise would not have.

If Romney's nomination was in the bag, do you think he could have highlighted the Catholic Church health care issue with as much passion and skill as Rick Santorum has?

If Romney had knocked Gingrich out of the race in Iowa, do you think the governor would have been clever enough to coin the phrase "The food stamp president" that the Speaker used to such devastating effect and which noticeably got under Obama's skin?

The GOP candidates are not just running against each other. They are running against Obama.

Pincher Martin -- Sunday, February 26, 2012 -- 10:41:59 PM -- 1996 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

By the way, Obama is having money problems of his own. His campaign is flush with cash, but his supporters still felt the need to start up a Super PAC and that organization has not been successful in raising much money.

Paltry fundraising by Obama "Super PAC" prompted new strategy

On one side of the board, Messina sketched out the amounts of money he expected Republican "Super PACs" and other groups to raise and spend to try to defeat the Democratic president in the November 6 election.
Drawing a line under that cumulative number -- roughly $700 million -- Messina then highlighted the amount raised by the Republican groups' Democratic counterparts. It was a measly figure.
"We've got to talk about this. This is a problem," Messina told Axelrod, according to a campaign official.
Roughly a month later, on February 6, the Obama campaign announced it would start supporting Priorities USA Action, the struggling Super PAC formed to help Obama. The move reversed a position rooted in Obama's distaste for the Supreme Court decision that allowed such independent groups to raise and spend unlimited amounts of money to try to influence elections.
If there were any lingering questions about why Obama's campaign changed course, they were answered late on Monday.
Priorities USA raised a paltry $59,000 in January, Federal Election Commission filings showed, and that amount came almost entirely from one longtime Obama supporter, John W. Rogers, who donated $50,000.
The disappointing figures were a sharp contrast with the tens of millions of dollars raised by the political action committees, or PACs, that support Republican presidential candidates.
Pincher Martin -- Monday, February 27, 2012 -- 05:04:25 PM -- 1997 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

Bad polling data for Obama.

Gallup/US Today poll of registered voters shows him trailing both Santorum and Romney in 12 swing states.

In the poll, Obama lags the two leading Republican rivals in the 12 states likely to determine the outcome of a close race in November:
•Former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum tops Obama 50%-45% in the swing states. Nationwide, Santorum's lead narrows to 49%-46%.
•Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney edges Obama 48%-46% in the swing states. Nationwide, they are tied at 47% each.
Amaxen -- Monday, February 27, 2012 -- 05:37:17 PM -- 1998 of 2421
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Heard on NPR today a cite of a poll showing Obama beating all of the GOP nominees in a national poll.

Amaxen -- Monday, February 27, 2012 -- 05:54:26 PM -- 1999 of 2421
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Debt ceiling triggering months earlier than anticipated - may occur during Presidential GE.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, February 27, 2012 -- 06:27:44 PM -- 2000 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

Heard on NPR today a cite of a poll showing Obama beating all of the GOP nominees in a national poll.

Politico/GWU/Battleground has a poll out showing Obama up by ten among likely voters, but that poll usually runs in favor of Obama.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, February 27, 2012 -- 07:02:12 PM -- 2001 of 2421
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California.” -- Edward Abbey

Michigan and Arizona's primaries are tomorrow. Polls have Romney up comfortably in Arizona, but the former MA governor is ahead of Santorum in Michigan by less than the margin of error.

Even if Romney wins both primaries, the race will go on. Ten states are voting on Super Tuesday, and several of the larger states are not friendly territory for Romney.

Here are the ten states voting in order of the number of delegates they have up for grabs. I have also put which candidate(s) I think is likely to win the state in parentheses.

1. Georgia - 76 (Most likely Gingrich; possibly Santorum)

2. Ohio - 66 (Toss-up between Santorum and Romney)

3. Tennessee - 58 (Most likely Santorum; possibly Gingrich)

4. Virginia - 49 (Romney -- Santorum and Gingrich not on ballot)

5. Oklahoma - 43 (Santorum)

6. Massachusetts - 41 (Romney)

7. Idaho - 32 (Toss-up between Romney, Santorum and possibly Paul)

8. North Dakota - 28 (Toss-up between Romney, Santorum and possibly Paul)

9. Alaska - 27 (Toss-up between Romney, Santorum and possibly Paul)

10. Vermont - 17 (Romney)

*****

Alaska, North Dakota, and Idaho are all holding caucuses, so it's harder to guess which way they'll turn on Super Tuesday. I'm pretty sure, however, that Gingrich has no chance in any of them.

Romney has generally done pretty well in the caucuses up to now, winning Nevada and Maine, and coming in a close second in Colorado and Iowa.

Rick Santorum has also done pretty well in the caucuses. He won Iowa, Colorado, and Minnesota.

Ron Paul has done less well. He has no victories and only a couple of close finishes in Iowa and Maine. But given the energy and quality of Paul's organization, I don't think he can be counted out yet of any of the caucuses.

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The Perfect World >> Politics >> Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?