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Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?
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The Perfect World >> Politics >> Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?

Start your engines: Will we have a better choice of drivers in 2012?

Nicholas Kronos -- Monday, January 31, 2011 -- 05:44:24 PM

The 2012 presidential campaign--you know it's coming and starting already. Will anyone run we can actually be excited about?

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CalGal -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 06:06:45 PM -- 42 of 2421
I remember a time, back in the late 90s, when I thought nonsense like this mattered somewhat more than I do now. Now I see well-educated people yammering about the birth control choices of their daughters, or gay marriage, and I think they are morons.

As I said, I wouldn't care at all if the Republicans would put up someone a) electable and b) reasonably tough on the issues. But if I'm stuck with a Dem president for 4 more years, I'd want Clinton over Obama.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 07:49:10 PM -- 43 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

You and Nick are both unable to break away from your past thinking about politics, a thinking which you share with many other Americans and which I believe is destructive to this country.

You keep wanting to recycle old names and failed political strategies. But a new paradigm is already shaping. Even if you manage to push in an old name like Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush in 2012, it's not going to change anything. We will still have the problems of the last ten years, and we will still have politicians who are inadequate to addressing those problems because they are only armed with the failed political ideas which have put us in this losing battle in the first place.

You are so fixated on Barack Obama. But he's not the real problem. He's just the most visible symptom of the age. And it was the political ideas of the failed politicians of the past who put Obama in the presidency, who gave him any chance at all. Now you believe this hair-of-the-dog strategy is going to provide a cure. It's just insanity.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 07:54:13 PM -- 44 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

I'm not trying to be an asshole. I seriously believe that you guys hold on to failed political strategies and failed politicians because you can't learn from your own mistakes and from the country's mistakes. You too often look for confirmation of your own beliefs, or for a quick fix, instead of looking for what's right and good and then going out to find someone who'll help you realize what's right and good.

rubberducky -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 07:57:09 PM -- 45 of 2421
If you really want the thread to die, give it to ducky. theMote's PoJ

You too often look for confirmation of your own beliefs, or for a quick fix, instead of looking for what's right and good and then going out to find someone who'll help you realize what's right and good.

ok, so then WHO do you think can do this?

CalGal -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 08:02:32 PM -- 46 of 2421
I remember a time, back in the late 90s, when I thought nonsense like this mattered somewhat more than I do now. Now I see well-educated people yammering about the birth control choices of their daughters, or gay marriage, and I think they are morons.

I know you believe it. You're just wrong.

Nicholas Kronos -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 08:42:38 PM -- 47 of 2421
Release the hashtags!

I don't recall ever promoting Jeb Bush's candidacy at any time. As far as HRC goes, I was responding to your points, Pincher. You write...

I'm not trying to be an asshole.

...so you must be aware that you come off this way at times. And the reason is because you don't actually listen to what people say but transfer your preconceptions to them. You have some point you want to expound, and if what I say doesn't jibe with that, you manufacture some position on my behalf that allows you to hold forth and lecture.

I do not support Jeb Bush, and I certainly do not support Hillary Clinton.

You say of me...

we will still have politicians who are inadequate to addressing those problems because they are only armed with the failed political ideas which have put us in this losing battle in the first place.

...and...

you guys hold on to failed political strategies and failed politicians

Yet in starting this thread I wrote instead: "Will anyone run we can actually be excited about?" Does that sound like I look forward to a bunch of retreads? The first name I threw out--to your quick dismissal--was Jon Huntsman. Just now I mentioned favoring some of the fresh-faced Republican governors.

Now if you prefer a discussion of ideas to actual people, then that's fine, but you shouldn't be surprised that a thread about drivers (candidates) is going to focus on people.

Really, though, the main problem with almost any discussion with you is you invariably want to personalize it. In the Gay Politics thread, for example, it's all about Harri's lifestyle and who she knows. With Mayimadom everything is all about how she lives in New Jersey. (To be fair, she does reference personal experience herself from time to time in making her arguments.)

Of course I'm responding to you on a personal level now, too, but only in terms of how you are arguing. I don't believe I ever have referenced your Asian wife or your Marine Corps service or something like that as making you incapable of reasoning about issues in a wider fashion. I *know* I don't let such factors dominate how I read, interpret, and respond to every post you make.

Over the past year or so, though, I do think you've succeeded in making me read your posts with the preconception that what you really want to do is vent your frustrations with the current political world via haranguing people on a message board. That may not be the accurate case, but it is what causes you to come across as--in your word--an asshole, who I'd prefer to elide most of the time.

For example, in the post to which I'm responding, it would lose nothing to write this:

If Americans are unable to break away from their past thinking about politics, I believe recycling old names and failed political strategies will be destructive to this country. But a new paradigm is already shaping. Even if Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush could somehow be elected in 2012, it's not going to change anything. We will still have the problems of the last ten years, and we will still have politicians who are inadequate to addressing those problems because they are only armed with the failed political ideas which have put us in this losing battle in the first place.

Barack Obama is not the real problem. He's just the most visible symptom of the age. And it was the political ideas of the failed politicians of the past who put Obama in the presidency, who gave him any chance at all. Believing this hair-of-the-dog strategy is going to provide a cure. It's just insanity.

[End re-word.]

Yet what you are left with is fairly generic stuff, expounded at length. That is, "we can't nibble at the corners, but something big needs to happen--and may already be happening." By personalizing it to me and Cal, you may hope to draw us out through a sense of being attacked. What you have hurled, however, is a slush snowball that could target almost anyone with the charge of not being radical enough in their aims. The few bits of specificity--HRC and Bush--don't apply to me at all.

By the way, if I'm given a choice of *only* HRC and Obama in a hypothetical, and I say, "Okay, HRC," it's rhetorical entrapment to say, then, "You're not thinking outside the box enough." Surely if your premises are true--this change may already be occurring--then we'll be offered some other choice in 2012. I, for one, think there's a decent chance of a third-party candidate.

Nicholas Kronos -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:02:53 PM -- 48 of 2421
Release the hashtags!

après moi le déluge

This phrase must be what caused you to draw the conclusion that I believe we can keep going, business as usual, with just a nip here and a tuck there.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:07:48 PM -- 49 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

I know you believe it. You're just wrong.

Then please explain your continued fascination with Hillary Clinton for 2012 at this late date. Why even link to an article like that? She is less likely to become president in 2013 than is Rand Paul.

Have you ever given your views on Tim Pawlenty? Or even linked to something about him? How about Haley Barbour? Mitch Daniels? Jim DeMint? John Thune? Unlike Hillary, these men are all considering running against Obama. They were not in the field in 2008. Do they not deserve even your consideration? And why are these men not electable if the current president continues his downward spiral?

You keep looking back instead of looking forward.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:11:09 PM -- 50 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

Rubber,

ok, so then WHO do you think can do this?

I don't know, but it's not going to be Hillary. Or Jeb Bush.

And if you remove the obvious wrong answers to a question, you give yourself a better chance of getting the right answer.

Cliff -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:53:11 PM -- 51 of 2421

I almost never post in Politics, but I have a question for the experts who do: Why is no one mentioning Rep. Paul Ryan, who, if nothing else, seems to have a better grasp of finance than the CBO, Ben Bernanke and the Fed governors combined? Is he a one-trick pony? Does he fail to meet expectations in other areas? Even Sarah Palin has nice things to say about him, as in a recent WSJ op-ed.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:55:35 PM -- 52 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

Nick,

Your failure has more to do with political strategy than explicitly and strongly endorsing particular candidates.

You continually emphasize Hobson's choices that don't exist for you right now and may never exist for you. You like to say, for example, that you don't like A and you don't think she (or he) would make a good president, but if A is running against B, then you will vote for A.

This particular way you have of thinking about politics goes back to at least 2004. And it's greatly flawed. Electing the less bad candidate of the last remaining two might have been an acceptable way of thinking about politics before 2008, when the political consequences of your decision seemed more marginal, but you now should be able to see that you are capable of voting for presidential candidates who, after they get elected, screw this country up as badly as anyone ever screws it up, even if they are the less shitty alternative in a particular election year.

What makes this kind of political thinking dangerous, though, is that by screwing the country up, the guy you voted for shuts down your future political choices, giving you less ability to counter the other side's even shittier future alternatives. You are now contemplating voting for a worse presidential candidate in 2012 than you voted for in 2008, who in turn was worse than the guy you voted for in 2004. And all because your past political choices helped pave the way for a political lefty neophyte to take power.

You can't pull yourself out of this downward spiral because you continue to insist that the proper way to think about political choices is to pick the least worse option of the two, even if that dichotomy forces you into a pick which is both particularly bad and endangers the success of your best future political choices.

=======

And why would you even be mentioning these Hobson's choices right now? The field is still wide open. But you are already announcing that you are prepared to vote for a politician you believe would make a bad president.

Shouldn't the proper attitude be that you have choices in the immediate future that can prevent that Hobson's choice? If I thought Candidate A would be a disastrous president and she was a member of my party, I would make damn sure she never got out of the primary alive. All my political rhetoric would be focused on that goal.

You can always face up to an awful Hobson's choice later if you fail. But instead you seem to prefer to build a mental cage which helps make the Hobson's choice inevitable.

Pincher Martin -- Monday, April 04, 2011 -- 09:58:03 PM -- 53 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

I almost never post in Politics, but I have a question for the experts who do: Why is no one mentioning Rep. Paul Ryan...

Three reasons.

He's young.

He's in the House of Representatives.

He's too focused on realistic budget policies that are attractive to wonks, but not attractive to the public.

Nicholas Kronos -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 02:12:14 AM -- 54 of 2421
Release the hashtags!

Your failure has more to do with political strategy than explicitly and strongly endorsing particular candidates.
You continually emphasize Hobson's choices that don't exist for you right now and may never exist for you. You like to say, for example, that you don't like A and you don't think she (or he) would make a good president, but if A is running against B, then you will vote for A.
This particular way you have of thinking about politics goes back to at least 2004.

Do you see how much second-person you have used above? Believe it or not, Pincher, I don't really think you have much to teach me about my views. Believe it or not, I know my views better than you do. It would behoove you, therefore, to try to express your own views or to talk about your positions as I really don't read you to help me understand myself.

What I do with what you characterize as Hobson's choices is merely a rhetorical device to put specificity on views, whereas you prefer the rarefied air of never wanting to be pinned down. In the last election, for example, you half-heartedly sort of came out for Romney--even though one of the main problems you had with McCain was his historical inconsistency on some conservative positions. Be that as it may, I never got the sense you actually were enthused about Romney, but rather defaulted into a half-hearted support for lack of anything better.

Do you realize how energy-sucking it is to have to deal with someone obsessed with playing critic and armchair psychoanalyst for everyone (and at least as far as I am personally concerned, rather badly)? It matter not to you that the "evidence" from which you assemble your case is completely wrong (that I do not support either Bush or Hillary); you believe your case is just as sound as it ever was and keep right on restating it.

You made several points about the similarities of Obama and Hillary and asked what would be the differences between the two. When I answered that question as premised, you believe I'm engaging in a Hobson's choice.

As for Michele Bachmann, I posit her as the Republican nominee to show--and I quote--"it's only at the fringes that it makes a difference to me." [Emphasis mine.] Certainly anyone who actually pays any attention to what I write knows that if Obama is the Democratic nominee I will almost certainly vote for the GOP nominee.

Would you prefer I write, "If the GOP nominates someone I don't find acceptable then I'll probably not vote. Otherwise, I'll vote against Obama"? No Hobson's choice, as clearly the GOP will either nominate someone I find acceptable or they won't. Also, very informative, that, and about on par with how you express your own position.

And if you remove the obvious wrong answers to a question, you give yourself a better chance of getting the right answer.

This is a glib non-answer (tautological and circular), but has been typical of your response since at least 2008 when called upon to state your own views. I suspect it is because, although one cannot come up with the right answer, pointing out the "obvious" still can give one some modicum of a sense of faux intellectual accomplishment:

PM: You sure are stupid to think balancing the budget can be accomplished through cutting foreign aid.

Random poster: What? Me? I never said that. I don't think that way at all.

PM: You most certainly do. You even said once we should cut foreign aid.

Random poster: That was in answer to the question of whether we should cut foreign aid or not. I didn't say it would balance the budget.

PM: It won't. You keep trying to cut foreign aid, but you're not going to balance the budget doing that. You need radical change.

Third poster: Well, how would you balance the budget?

PM: I don't know, but one thing I've figured out that the rest of you haven't seemed to is you can't do it by cutting foreign aid.

CalGal -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 02:17:48 AM -- 55 of 2421
I remember a time, back in the late 90s, when I thought nonsense like this mattered somewhat more than I do now. Now I see well-educated people yammering about the birth control choices of their daughters, or gay marriage, and I think they are morons.

Hahahaha!

He does seem a trifle obsessed with telling us what our views are, doesn't he?

Nicholas Kronos -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 02:37:55 AM -- 56 of 2421
Release the hashtags!

Cliff: I can't say that I'm an expert on Ryan, but I don't think our current system is geared toward elevating candidates based on technocrat-type competence. (I had a much longer answer, but I think that covers it.)

You hope the eventual winner fills his or her team with such people, but they aren't the ones who get to play quarterback.

Pincher Martin -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 03:38:09 AM -- 57 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

Do you see how much second-person you have used above? Believe it or not, Pincher, I don't really think you have much to teach me about my views.

I didn't realize, Nick, that you had raised your self-awareness into personal omniscience. Who knew you had eliminated all predictable patterns of thinking of which you might be unaware? I guess Greg and I are the only posters occasionally guilty of that lack of self-reflection. Cal and you apparently have your political beliefs tightly whipped in line. If they occasionally appear contradictory or wrong, it's plainly due to a faulty perception in the beholder.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, because I suspect you will think it is the "armchair psychoanalyst" who is talking, but you aren't that smart. You're certainly not a dumb person. In fact, you're quite sharp. But you move around to various subjects here with the same numerous glaring fallacies cropping up in your arguments. And when you are pressed on them, you fall apart mentally. You become defensive and your wounded amour-propre could fill an Arab tent. There just aren't enough IQ points in the world to hold up this brittle self-image you have.

Robert Heinlein has an excellent quote in which he says he never learned anything from a man who agreed with him. It's a sentiment I've seen expressed many times over the years. I think it's pretty clear you obviously wouldn't agree with it. The idea of vigorous criticism improving your arguments seems to be foreign to your way of thinking, which apparently prefers the soft approbation of slack-jawed dunderheads to critics who read you seriously and take your ideas seriously.

I don't think you need to be an armchair psychoanalyst to understand why.

Do you realize how energy-sucking it is to have to deal with someone obsessed with playing critic and armchair psychoanalyst for everyone...?

I suspect it's the critic who deflates you more. Intelligent criticism energizes me, even when it is filled with all kinds of comments I don't like. I loved my old battles with PE for just that reason. I learned so much from them. And I lost most of them.

I've never learned anything from someone who just posts tail-wagging comments like "Yep", "Ditto", or "I agree," and I distrust the kind of man who needs to hear that mindless approval.

This is a glib non-answer (tautological and circular)...

It's neither.

A simple example from a logic course should suffice in showing that. If we agree that God is not a mini-van, then we have successfully, if only partially, defined God by defining what he is not.

Narrowing the range of your acceptable choices is not glib. It's not tautological. It's not circular. It's a perfectly useful way of thinking about problems.

Pincher Martin -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 04:30:25 AM -- 58 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

It matter not to you that the "evidence" from which you assemble your case is completely wrong (that I do not support either Bush or Hillary); you believe your case is just as sound as it ever was and keep right on restating it.
You made several points about the similarities of Obama and Hillary and asked what would be the differences between the two. When I answered that question as premised, you believe I'm engaging in a Hobson's choice.

I never said you supported either Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton. I said you retreat to a predictable pattern to frame your political choices, a pattern I was reminded of by your recent arguments.

For example, the most recent "Candidate A" I was mainly thinking of when writing my posts to you was not Bush or Clinton, but Sarah Palin. You have stated here in this forum that given a choice between Palin and Obama, you would choose Palin, even though you are not a fan of hers and don't believe she would make a good president.

You made a similar argument in 2008 in defense of McCain (who you liked). And in 2004 about Bush. You also have made similar arguments about other Republican candidates. You see a pattern?

It's true you don't always make this argument about Republican candidates, but you usually only drop it when the candidate is an obvious long shot unlikely to ever force you into having to make a Hobson's choice.

Pincher Martin -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 08:18:40 AM -- 59 of 2421
"Whoever is winning at the moment will always seem to be invincible." -- George Orwell

From H.L. Mencken's "Footnote on Criticism":

Upon the low practical value of so-called constructive criticism, I can offer testimony out of my own experience. My books are commonly reviewed at great length, and many critics devote themselves to pointing out what they conceive to be my errors, both of fact and taste. Well, I cannot recall a case in which any suggestion offered by a constructive critic has helped me in the slightest, or even actively interested me. Every such wet-nurse of letters has sought fatuously to make me write in a way differing from that in which the Lord God Almighty, in His infinite wisdom, impels me to write -- that is, to make me write stuff which, coming from me, would be as false as an appearance of decency in a Congressman. All the benefits I have ever got from the critics of my works have come from the destructive variety. A hearty slating always does me good, particularly if it be well written. It begins by enlisting my professional respect; it ends by making me examine my ideas coldly in the privacy of my chamber. Not, of course, that I usually revise them, but I at least examine them. If I decide to hold fast to them, they are all the dearer to me thereafter, and I expound them with a new passion and plausibility. If, on the contrary, I discern holes in them, I shelve them in a pianissimo manner, and set about hatching new ones to take their place. But constructive criticism irritates me. I do not object to being denounced, but I can't abide being school-mastered, especially by men I regard as imbeciles. [My emphasis in bold.]

I like this criticism of the "destructive variety." I like giving it, and I like receiving it. I like it precisely because it makes me think. I almost always come away from destructive criticism with my arguments either significantly strengthened or appropriately dismissed and tossed out. In both cases, I'm better off for it.

Great criticism doesn't nibble politely at the margins. It goes right for the weakest parts of an argument like a hungry predator hunting down the weakest members of a herd. It seeks to push the object of its attention to defend himself and his views. If he's not an idiot or a poseur, why would he mind?

Of course some criticism can be destructive and still be unfair. But most intelligent men can easily tell the difference between the two, and while they might be occasionally upset by some harsh and unfair words directed their way, they usually don't dwell on it as if their mother's honor was involved.

CalGal -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 04:47:03 PM -- 60 of 2421
I remember a time, back in the late 90s, when I thought nonsense like this mattered somewhat more than I do now. Now I see well-educated people yammering about the birth control choices of their daughters, or gay marriage, and I think they are morons.

Hahahahaha! Yes, Nick is whining that you've attacked his honor.

What we're both trying to tell you, Pincher, is that you are simply incorrect in your assertions.

Amaxen -- Tuesday, April 05, 2011 -- 04:56:01 PM -- 61 of 2421
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Does he fail to meet expectations in other areas?

His real problem is that he's too honest, too soon.

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